EXPLORERS🚀 An Unearthly Child Review

We step into the mists of time and go back to the very beginning to rewatch the one that started it all!

That's right, this Explorers episode is all about An Unearthly Child - the very first episode of Doctor Who, the one without which, there would be no 60th anniversary to celebrate this year!

Amidst the ongoing issue over whether we can or can't watch this story ever again, we dug out our DVD copy and watched again, showing why physical media is king at the same time!

We discuss this debut episode of our favourite show, the unaired pilot episode, some theories on the Timeless Child and the episode and a fair bit more as well!

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Transcript

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Hello and welcome to Who Corner to Corner Explorers, the subscriber episodes for our podcast. If you're listening, thank you. We appreciate your support immensely. So, as I'm sure you know by now, I'm Geoff, he's Paul, and this is a special subscriber only episode. And for this one, we're tackling the hot potato of fandom at the moment, as you can see over there. And we're also... at the same time going right back to the start just in time for the 60th anniversary celebrations. So which episode is it Paul? It's An Unearthly Child, Geoff. An Unearthly Child. Or is it 100,000 BC? Or is it the Tribe of Gum or something like that? They didn't really do. Eee by gum. Hey up lad. I know where you are coming from lad. Hey you know what I mean? I don't know what that was. You started it. as far as I'm concerned, this is the Unearthly Child and Unearthly Child and Unearthly Child and Un. And yes, it's been rather in the news lately, as I'm sure you've all seen, because the son of the writer of the episode has... thrown a strop and uh... pulled the license rights to it so the episode is uh... being pulled from iPlayer and any other streaming services that it was on it won't be uh... well whatever is on at the moment BritBox it won't be going on iPlayer when uh... the whole the BBC I think. That's the thing isn't it? He reckons Dave. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into all that. Whatever he reckons, I'm sure he's got his reasons. But not bad. Sorry. wants that DVD, 500 quid. Alright? are, do you know what? They are going on eBay. I was looking at that one there because that's where it was at The Beginning box set which was out. Yeah, yeah. So you get An Unearthly Child, you get the edge of destruction and you get the Daleks as well, the first serial of the Daleks. It's quite a nice box set but I've seen that going for ridiculous money now on eBay and I wish I'd bought two of them back in the day because I think I got mine for like 10 quid or something like that. I mean, are there any other family members of any other writers who are going to throw strops and, you know? No. So yeah, we thought we'd look back at this one. I hadn't watched it in a little while actually and what I took away from it is that it's actually quite an odd episode in that... it's quite eerie and quite strange isn't it you know and uh... it really kind of builds up this stuff of you know susan being uh... you know unusual yeah unusual and sort of you know somewhat difficult in that you know she'll kind of counter and challenge the you know enan barber and you say that I do have some thoughts on that actually. I'm just gonna make a note right now. So Geoff said, what did you say? She is weird, oh difficult. Well, in that, you know, Ian will say, you know, let's look at the three dimensions and then she's like, what about the fourth and fifth? And then, you know, that bit where she's like, well, space and, you know, she, you know, yes. the fifth, Susan? What is that? Space! And then it kind of blends into, yeah. you know, and it's quite smart with this use of the sort of flashbacks to the classroom scenarios with her. But yeah, it's quite eerie and sort of builds up this thing. And I tried to put myself in the mindset of, you know, if I was watching this in 63 and, you know... We obviously have to remember that TV and film and things were very different back then. Not only were they not in colour, but it was a lot more theatrical in the way things were done. But, you know, Waris Hussein had done some sweeping camera moves and visual reveals and stuff. It was quite ambitious for something that was... of avant-garde. Mm. at the time, but you know when he and Barbara go to the junkyard and they sort of creep in there and stuff, it is sort of, it did feel a sense of well I don't really know what's going to happen here and it's all getting a bit strange and then they get into the TARDIS and meet the Doctor and he's a bit of a grumpy so and so and there's that bit where he says you know we are not of your earth and you know your race and things like that and actually oh my god it's a bit, you know, it's quite in a way, you know, and, you know, if I was, you know, young watching it back then, I imagine I'd have been both sort of excited and, you know, a bit freaked out by it really, you know, and also I was just going to say I like that. shot when they go into the junkyard and the camera comes round and we reveal the TARDIS and I think it was at the 50th anniversary celebration when you went in there was a replica of the gates, the I.M. Foreman gates and you went in and just behind you was the TARDIS in a sort of replica of that set there which was quite nice. I'm pretty sure it was at that one. Or maybe it was one of the walkthrough exhibition type things. Anyway, it was at something. Maybe someone listening would be able to remember me correctly on it. I'm gonna be able to correct Geoff on that one. That's quite interesting. So the first time I ever saw this, I'm not old enough to have watched it on the first transmission, because obviously you can tell from my youthful good looks that I'm not as old as I might otherwise appear to be. But still, so I first saw this on the repeat season in 1981, the Five Faces of Doctor Who. So that was between the end of Logopolis, i.e. the end of Tom Baker and the start of Peter Davison in... Castrovalva and that was I'm pretty sure in fact he was because I checked it but I don't know the actual date but it was November so it was around a sort of anniversary time it wasn't a big like you know it wasn't the 20th so it would have been like 18th or 19th I think whatever it was so 1981 18th anniversary which is nothing really but anyway so this is this one they showed An Unearthly Child and they showed the Krotons to represent the second Doctor and they showed, I think it was the Carnival of Monsters, but they definitely also showed the Three Doctors. And then they showed, was it Genesis of the Daleks? I think, after that, possibly. And Logopolis, actually, to show Peter Davison's bit at the end of it, something like that, anyway. But so, yeah, and it was really, really special because I just really decided at that point, I say decided, you know, because as you know, right from the conversations we've had on the podcast, season 18. was my kind of catalyzing moment, you know, with the likes of Warriors Gate and Keeper of Traken and Logopolis, that's when I really thought, ooh, this is when I can become a fan of this show. So in the intervening year between Tom Baker and Peter Davison, I kind of started reading up more on the show. I'd already been reading Target books, but kind of, you know, took it to a new level. I kind of thought, right, and I read a load that I'd already read again to try and establish what the chronology of The Doctor was. You know, I knew there was a first, second, third, fourth. I'd read mostly... the third and fourth Doctor target novels. And then I kind of went back and read as much as I could find of the second Doctor and there wasn't that many first Doctor novels around. The Tenth Planet is probably the only one I can really sort of think of. I think An Unearthly Child might have been out by then, but I'm not entirely sure. I'll probably just look around and have a look when it was published actually. Anyway, and like you, Geoff, I remember it being really, really quite creepy. And my mum and dad watched it as well. Now they said they remembered it from way back when, but I think a lot of it is probably false memories. So, but I, and I do remember sitting down with my dad and my sister, I think she was there as well. She'd been really quite small and we were, we just watched it and it was at that time in the evening when it was quite getting dark outside early evening. So it was probably quite close to what it would have been like in November 63. And it was just a really thrilling. sort of vibe that I was getting is it and I thought my god this is like the first ever and I didn't know what to expect the first ever episode of Doctor Who this is how I'm going to watch it right now and my dad was coming out with some sort of memories like yeah I remember it being about cavemen or something so I'm thinking caveman what oh that's exciting and my mum probably come out with some pity comment because she's never liked Doctor Who at all so me and my sister just kind of waited and watches it unfolded and you're absolutely right expectation and the thrill and the suspense of that and this was again 1981 so the whatever copy they showed it hadn't gone through the sort of vidfire process the cleaning up that they did on the on the dvds right so it was probably as grainy as it was as it would have seen through a tv in 1963 so i think that was as close as possible as someone of my generation could get to that original experience but you're right because even then we still know the legacy of Doctor Who from that moment. And I think for those who were watching it at the time in 1963, you know, nothing can replace that moment that those people must have felt because there was no legacy at that point. There was no history of Doctor Who. Nobody could have known that police box when Ian and Barbara sort of pushed their way into it would ever have been revealed as this futuristic gleaming white. No. humming electronic space control room. Nobody would have guessed that. The shock that you would have felt would have been incredible. Imagine looking at that as a seven, 89 year old kid thinking, what? because you look at it now and it's not that impressive compared to what we've had in later years, of course. But, you know, and like, well, no. I think it's at least as, if not more impressive than some of the recent control console rooms, control rooms, whatever we're gonna call it. Hmm. the intention of it is though, I do like that one of the walls is a clearly a plastic drape thing. Yeah. No, that's the thing. Yeah, you wouldn't have noticed it. I think of when they clean up the tapes you know and give us the give us more detail to fill a 19 well that's actually more than that to fill a 4k TV now these days. yeah, you see things that back then... Mmm. you would never have questioned because you wouldn't have seen the detail and also you just you know yeah you wouldn't have known. But actually yeah whilst it's not as spectacular for me as some stuff that's come like you know that slow pan across the room and you see what are these circular walls and these weird chairs and then you see the you know the control deck I don't know what you're going to call it but the console yeah when bigger than the box was and everything and it is you know so many little things that are very odd about it all you know. have a really good moment of establishing that as well, because there's a point when Ian walks around it, doesn't it? Because he puts his hand on it first, and he's like, come and feel this, Barbara, feel this, feel it, feel it, feel it. He says, feel it about a hundred times or something, you know, and then says it's alive, and then kind of just walks around it, comes back and says, there's nothing, it's not connected to anything, you know, unless it's underground. So again, we all know that something, because of course, like you said, the opening shot was pretty much of the TARDIS, right? We get the policeman. Then we go through the gates. I think the camera knocks into the gates at some point. Or is that on, that might be on the untransmitted pilot actually, because the two kind of get a bit confused in my head sometimes. And then he sort of turns the corner and then you get the police box shape, don't you? Which again, would have been a reasonably ordinary thing. I think the only unusual thing for the police box in that episode is the fact it's in a junkyard and not on the street. As Ian says, well, these things are normally on the streets. Why would it be in a junkyard? So yeah, that's weird. Why would the police box be in a junkyard? an everyday thing and puts it in another everyday thing, but the combination is slightly strange. And yeah, I like the thing about it's alive. And that was something that, you know, the Chybna Lir did a lot more of as well. You know, there's a bit, I mean, I think it's timeless children. Jodie puts her hand on the TARDIS and the windows glow, you know, and it. response to her to her touch. to her talking to it sometimes with the noises and things. And, you know, yeah, it is very subtle. And, you know, they like the 11th Doctor always, you know, sort of called it sexy and, you know, talk to it a bit and stuff. It just felt a bit more kind of prominent with Jodie's Doctor and, you know, their interaction. wife. The TARDIS was given a human form. Yeah. and you know that really kind of literally personifies that you know, it's alive You know our angle there which was which was lovely brilliantly done. Yeah so nice line that's been taken through Doctor Who fiction throughout, you know, certainly in a lot of the books and comics and spin-off media and stuff, you know, the whole idea of the time has been alive. And now we get telepathic circuits, well, I mean, we've had telepathic circuits for probably since... John Pertwee's days, I think maybe even Patrick Troughton and possibly, but maybe not referred to as such. So it's nice that these little things are kind of just built on over the 60 years of Doctor Who that we've had. Yeah. So what were the notes that you had? I've done loads mate. I've done well, do you know what? Cause I watched just to remind myself cause I haven't seen this for quite a while actually. So I watched it again last night. And then just for a laugh, just for a laugh, I watched the untransmitted pilot version of it. So I'm sure most of you know this, but for those of you who don't, the original episode was recorded as a pilot. And then when the producers. played it back to Sydney Newman, whose idea, Doctor Who kind of was in the first place. He allegedly kind of ranted a little bit and said he didn't like it for various reasons. Took Warris Hussein, the director, and very glamour, the producer, out to lunch and said, this is why I don't like it. And he gave them a whole list of notes. And I said, I'm gonna give you another chance. You go back and you redo it. You reshoot the entire thing from top to bottom. And this time you get it right. It was too important to get wrong. You know, that's the thing. And that's, you know, that's quite, I mean, that's a nice problem to have in some ways, you know what I mean? Because I think it was really rare for a pilot episode, certainly in the UK, to be reshot, to be completely remounted, not just a few edits here and there. The entire thing, end to end, start to finish, was redone. And the dialogue changed slightly, there's a few things, but there are some really important differences, which I noticed from watching them. back to back last night and so a lot of my notes are on those differences so yeah we can talk about those as and when you feel is appropriate Geoff. Well why not thank you for asking. Well indeed there are a few actually I mean there's some certain camera decisions I think which are kind of redone in the next one so for example the opening shot of going through the gates is slightly different. It's a lot less clunky in the remounted version. So the remounted version is a version that was eventually transmitted on the 23rd of November. But in the original version, the camera literally simply like bashing to the doors. And it was really, it's quite shaky anyway, but it was really, cause obviously they had to move these massive pedestal things around. There's none of this telephoto zoom lens with AI corrective control and stuff like that. No, you had to move the beast into shots. in a tiny cramped set in a tiny studio that wasn't fit for purpose at all from what I understand and you're quite right. Waris Hussain the director had some nice little flourishes and I like that those kind of come through but there's things like that and the policeman is different as well they recast the policeman so he's a he's a different guy and he does something quite different as well his movements have slightly changed but the biggest difference is really in the tone of the piece. It's that the untransmitted pilot is really quite dark and really sinister and actually really harsh. And you know, you were saying about, you know, the character of the Doctor, but you know, in the untransmitted pilot, he's just not nice at all. And there's a lot more, there's less warmth between Ian and Barbara and when they're talking about Susan, you know, it just has a really sinister tone to it. It's not... It's not actually pleasant to watch, but we lose a few things as well, which I think would have been quite nice to retain. For example, there's a, I think it's a really nice moment. So, you know when Ian and Barbara are in the school and they have that little chat about Susan, and then they go and see her, cause she's in a classroom waiting for a book on the French Revolution or something, right? So they go back and see her and Barbara gives her the book. And then Ian offers, he's already offered Barbara a lift home and he says to Susan, you know, I'll give you a lift back if you want and she refuses. And then the two of the two teachers go away. And, and, but, and Susan's got her book on a French revolution, but then what she does, right, there's, um, she sort of goes really, really strangely weird, right? It's a look comes over her face and she gets, she gets a bit of paper and she sort of splats a whole bunch of ink from an ink pen on it and she folds, you know, she gets that and she folds the paper over. Mm. opens it to reveal like a Rorschach kind of inkblot test, you know, where you see, you see the shape and you see it. And then she's looking at it really weirdly and then she seems to get filled by some kind of manic, I don't know, like Andrew or some kind of energy. She's like, you know, and she draws, right. So you've got like, I'm going to do it. And it's brilliant. Right. So you've got like the inkblot, which is all down the middle and everything else like that, right. And then she draws over it a hexagon shape like that. or you know what's that one two three whatever it is you know that many things which made me think do you know and obviously it wasn't there then but made me think of the hexagons in the Tardis that we see nowadays and specifically thinking about the fugitive Doctor and the timeless child and all that stuff and how that shape was not so much a trigger but it was present in Dr Ruth's kind of transformation into uncovering herself. When you think about Susan and we don't know who Susan really is you know we don't really know her relationship to the Doctor whether it was you know, spin-off media has done its own kind of thing with it, but within the actual canon of the show itself, we don't know that relationship. Is it really grandfather, granddaughter, you know, or whatever, but, you know, just kind of, and it's really weird watching it with the timeless child framework now sort of shining onto those early episodes and how you can sort of slot it in. But obviously that version was never transmitted, but I thought it would be great if we'd have kept that. the book of the French Revolution and says, well, that's wrong for a start. And Ian doesn't offer her a lift back, which probably even in 1963 was a little bit sinister for teachers to be offering kids a lift back home. And, but another thing that's lost, I'll just close with this one, is a few other things, but I'd wanted to bring attention to this one because I love it, right? So in the original TARDIS console room, there's a lot more furniture. So kind of implying that the Doctor's been to various places and blah, blah. And we get a little bit more background. say background, there's a little bit more, there's more, it's less abstract as to where they come from. So their kind of origin story is slightly different and Susan says, you know, she's from the 49th century, so it's quite explicit, whereas in the transmitted version it's a bit more vague. But at the back of the TARDIS set, right, there are these giant roundels, you know, the round things on the walls. So you got the console and then behind it you got some kind of glittery light technology looking stuff and then behind them you just got this horizon of massive, massive roundels. A bit like in Castrovalva in the Zero Room where the roundels are suddenly massive. And I'd never noticed that before and I watched it and I thought, oh I like that. And then I was really disappointed when I watched the transmitted version to see that they were no longer there. They'd gone. The TV scanner was slightly different. Susan wears space clothes inside the TARDIS. Whereas in the transmitted version, she's just wearing standard clothing. And like I said, the biggest thing is that the transmitted version, which is, I think, actually a lot better, and I'm glad they remounted it, because it would have been a totally different show. It's much warmer, and Hartnell is, they say pretty much the same things, some slight differences in script, but essentially, it's pretty much the same sort of dialogue. You know, that's some of the few changes, but. And it's easy, it's brilliant to see how great an actor William Hartnell is, in fact all of them really, because William Hartnell again delivers the same lines without breaking character, but just ever so slightly warmer, more mischievous rather than sinisterly mysterious, right? With a twinkle in his eye rather than a dangerous deadly glint in his eye. And yet he says the same things. You know, plays it more like a kind of doddery old man than someone who's perhaps plotting to abduct two school teachers and dump them on a distant planet in the far future. So yeah, and there's a lot of stuff, but I won't go on. I'll stop there. But what I will say is if you haven't watched the untransmitted pilot, do watch it. If you've got it on DVD, it's part of the extras in the DVD. And I think there's even a version where they show the whole 35 minute version, which is the whole unedited recording. Because obviously they used to shoot these things as live back in the day. So the actual pilot is 25 minutes, but there's a version now which is 35 minutes. So it includes the kind of, not the recording breaks, but the kind of stops and starts between each take as it were. Yeah, it is on there, yeah. it's a really interesting document and good on Sydney Newman for actually giving Verity and Warris the kind of push if you like to do it again and allowing them to do it again because yeah and as I said it was like you know he apparently said this is too important to put this version out there you know it has to be right and thank goodness that slightly more abstract so the Doctors and Susan's origins weren't you know weren't given as a definite article you know what I mean they might be on the run from something but all we get in the in the final version is that their exiles cut off from their own planet and they will go back one day they will return you know the first Doctor gives that little speech and that's about as close as we get to any kind of whereas again in the original one it's you know we're cut off we're on the run know, exiled from our own people, never able to go back and we're in the from the 49th century so it's interesting. It is, but you know what again thinking of that I thought oh you know maybe that's like the Division, do you know what I mean? Because if the Doctor was on the run from the Division at that point and somehow Susan had kind of helped him in some way and had fabricated their escape from the Division rather than Gallifrey as such then that would have been Yeah, it's quite... Yeah, it does, isn't it? is when I think like, you know, people say that it shuts down and disrespects all the history. Whereas it kind of doesn't, it just gives me another way of enjoying these episodes to think, well, what if, you know, the fugitive Doctor, if she is, was pre-harmful, how does that kind of tie in? And you see this stuff. there's that scene in... Is it Name of the Doctor? Well, we see Clara, you know, and the first Doctor is... yeah, but you know, I really don't like that. I love the idea and I remember watching it when I thought, no, they're not going to, they are going to do it, they're going to show it. And I love the idea of it. And I like the fact they did it. But what I really, really hate is just the casual flippantness or flippancy of Clara saying, better take that one, mate. This one, you know, that one's knackered or whatever. And I just thought, oh man, it's just, you know, it's like potentially one of the great moments of Doctor Who. and it's just thrown away for the sake of a one line gag. And it's like, ah, it's just one thing that Steven Moffat often does that really gets me. I know why he does it and I love the fact he does it. But the fact he did it right there is just, ah man, ah, why did you? Cause that is now forever. Cause you know, as far as I'm concerned for me in my head, the Canon is what we see on TV. And you know, everything that outside of it. Big Finnish audios and comics and not even the novels. I think, yeah, it might be, but whatever's on TV is definitive 100% in my head. So that is now definitive. That is the moment that the Doctor. Stola Tardis and it's just reduced to a gag. Yeah, so I prefer that. But of course, the other thing as well is another revisionist thing is obviously Remembrance of the Daleks. right, the 25th anniversary story, which also happened in that junkyard, right, and at Coal Hill School. So now we're thinking, well, the First Doctor's hiding the Hand of Omega in there as well, right, the big super weapon from Gallifrey's dark and distant past of which he may have been directly involved with. So with that, plus the Division, suddenly the First Doctor is looking like a completely different or more textured, more layered character than we ever thought he would be. And certainly one which was never quite there. in 1963 but because the final version of An Unearthly Child that was transmitted doesn't give away their origin story as something specifically explicit it's there for future show runners and script editors and writers and whatever to kind of go back and just play around with it a little bit more and maybe add another layer to it and you know and I love the fact they you know they so for me now I watch An Unearthly Child thinking well there's just been a massive Dalek battle going on here. The Hand of Omega is stashed in somewhere just around the corner. And the Doctor's leading away this whole Civil War with the Daleks and stuff like that. And now of course he's on the run from the Division. So with or without his memories of said events. yeah, he could be, you know, have lost the memories and be on the run, you know, and do that. And yeah, it is quite interesting and fun to take that stuff, you know, from recent years and kind of, you know, think on it back there and, you know. this could happen, that could happen and yeah, it doesn't disrespect it at all, it enriches it and adds more to it and you know, my you know, view is you know, he's the first Doctor and that's that and you know, even if... himself the first Doctor. He was just the Doctor, wasn't he? I would say because, yeah. well yeah, that's true, you know, and even if the fugitive Doctor came before him, you know, to us he's still the first Doctor, and I think if you're gonna get bent out of shape over easy technically the first Doctor, you know, it's just maybe looking for, you know, an argument. Yeah. there is there is something I thought of actually and I did make a little note of it on my notes and I thought wouldn't it be great if they if they'd been like a weeping angel in the junkyard or even not even a weeping angel just a statue of an angel and it's quite creepy as well because there's a lot of mannequins there were smashed in faces isn't there a foot, as I notice a mannequin foot on something as it goes in. Yeah, so you could say they're wreckage of angels or something. Yeah. And there's more in the remounts, i.e. the transmitted version. There's more junk, there's more props. Because apparently they'd actually got rid of the set after they'd done the original pilot. So they had to rebuild it. They had to rebuild the set from scratch. And it was Barry Newbury, I think, who designed it, who's credited as the designer for the whole full part. So and this the Tardis light is slightly different as well as said with we've lost the giant roundels we've gained more shots of that big overhead big light fitting that kind of hangs down. So and a different TV screen as well, a different scanner it's amazing to think that, you know, what... couldn't have happened if they'd watched the original pilot and gone, yeah, it's not working, forget it, because you're right. Well, no, well, at all, because normally you do a pilot and then, you know, it gets, yeah, we like it, yeah, let's go, you know, or don't do it. And yeah, that's really rare, I think, for something to kind of get another shot at it. Normally it would just be like, yeah, it hasn't worked, forget it, you know. So yeah, it could have all stopped there. of microphone booms in shot, you know, that I think. but you know it shot live so you know despite all the rehearsal yeah it but yeah, sure. They don't want to stop because I think it's like the editing was expensive. You had to bring someone in to spend hours with blooming tape, snipping with scissors and... you get little, you know, stumbles and things, you know, and particularly as, you know, You know the first author, you know, is he's getting older, you know in the show, you know He makes more mistakes, isn't he and that was you know, one of the reasons why he sort of doing it, you know So, you know, I really enjoyed watching it again. It really I was trying to think as well Would it fly today as a as a pilot as a first episode? You'd have to do it differently No, because I think that it's too Mmm. there's no real action in it, you know. Yeah, I don't know though. Yeah, maybe perhaps. I mean I Went when Freya started watching Doctor Who which I know I've told this story So we watched series 10 that was when she came into it and she asked to watch the very first episode afterwards So once we'd watched The World Enough In Time, The Doctor Falls, that sort of thing. She, and I was like, I don't know. I said to her, look, it's really, really different. It's literally like a different show. And I thought, well, I'll just show a Rose instead. You know, she goes, no, the very, very first with The Old Man. I said, you sure you want to watch it? She goes, yeah, I just want to see it. And she did, she watched it. And I won't say that she enjoyed it as such, you know, but she wanted to see it and she's glad, you know, she always said she's glad she did. Yeah. for no other reason, if nothing, because in the first shot of the pilot, the Peter Capaldi story, season 10, the pilot, there's a photograph of Susan Foreman on his desk. So, and it's from an unearthly, well, the publicity stills, I think, from round about then. So, at least then she knew who Susan was, and she knew how Doctor Who started. And I do wonder, could you shoot it almost line for line in the modern day? What carries it is like you said earlier, it's the intrigue and suspense. And I, you know, watching it last night, I thought, well, even though I've seen it loads of times, it still feels to me just as powerful and as magnetic as it's ever done since I first watched it in 1981. Yeah, you'd probably, you know, just crank that element up in it a bit more, you know, make it a little bit eerie, yeah. but again, it's like everything's in place, isn't it? You've got, like we said, with the mysterious mannequins, the shadows, there's a lot more fog in the transmitted episode as well. I think the things you could lose, I mean, there are some, there's some stuff. I mean, the Doctor has a line about Red Indians and savages and stuff like that, which just wouldn't, I mean, you wouldn't do it. The Doctor needs to be better than that, frankly. So, you know, so. bringing it up to date with the modern sensibility. But I think, you know, just those sort of things aside, you could almost do it line for line. You could even set it in 1963, I think, and still do it. So you've got the thing about Susan being, you know, knowing the decimal system before it happens. And, you know, I think you'd probably, this thing about her being difficult and weird, actually the thing I made a note of, because you're right, they make a big thing of that. And I think Ian mentions a couple of times whether she could be a foreigner. you know, or I think there's a line, what is it? Just stupid or doesn't know or something like that, you know, and I was kind of thinking, well, you know, all the traits that she's exhibiting, you know, could be, you know, could easily belong to someone on the autism spectrum. You know what I mean? And that's how you probably look at those things through a modern lens. You'd be more aware of those differences. you would've been- and I said difficult, I don't mean like naughty. I mean like... Mm. they're asking the question, is she difficult? Is she stupid? She seems to be clever at some things, but incredibly dumb at other things. You know, there's no sense that she has a common sense. She's challenging for the teachers. They don't know how to respond to her. And, you know, and this is a very real issue, you know, throughout schooling. But one which in the last couple of decades or so has become more recognized, you know, and schools do seem to be doing a little bit more about them. they do, yeah. you know, for kids who have autistic traits. So it's, you know, you sort of maybe cast that lens onto it back in those days. interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think she was hard work and naughty, like I said, but I think Ian says she essentially beats him to it with answers and stuff, doesn't she, and knows things and all that. But yeah, I really enjoyed rewatching it and I hope that it returns and people are able to watch it going forward and this sorry situation is resolved. But I'm sure it will be eventually. I'm sure it will be for some reason. Yeah, it's, it's a shame that it's kind of turned out the way it is, but hopefully it's just a streaming thing anyway. Um, yeah, yeah. If anyone wants to pay a grand for my little copy, they're not getting it actually. I'm going to, I'm going to hold onto it. But of course the worry is that, you know, are we going to see it for the blu-ray collection? You know, is it going to be part of that box? I mean, it kind of has to be really, doesn't it? I'm sure there's been plans for that set and there'll be a huge amount of stuff about it. So, yes. Yeah. By the time that last collection set comes out they'll then have to do the new collection and start with series one and go back through it all. just thinking about something you were saying there as well actually about you know if they had gone with the old pilot, you know, and also you know we both said it would be a different show but would audiences have stuck with it? I think actually they still might have done because if you think the three episodes that follow about the cavemen and not exactly how can I put it politely um They're not the most entertaining of Doctor Who episodes that we've seen. And I think obviously Doctor Who really kicked in with the Daleks, right? The actual, the second story, if you like. That was when it shot out to become a sort of, you know, phenomenon in modern culture. It was that did it. So I think as long as we could get to the Daleks, then we're good. Even though again, the Daleks was against everything that Verity and Sydney Newman, you know, didn't want, apparently, so didn't want the BEMs. And yet there they are. And they... proved to be the most popular thing. So yeah, that's quite interesting. But yeah, did you watch the three episodes? Have you watched them for a long time? The KBEN one? No, I was trying to think when I picked up the set there with the three of them in, maybe it was around the time of the fiftieth or something. You know, I went through a... stage back then of buying lots of the classic stuff on DVD. I can't remember why I bought that, maybe it was in an HMV or something. I've had it for a while but I haven't watched it all for a little while. Yeah, I did try watching it last night and I didn't get far. I think I got past the Cave of Skulls, which is all right. And I think at some point I just fell asleep. I mean, it was quite late. I was watching it. It was around about midnight. And I made the decision that, yeah, go on. I'll give it a go. I'd already watched the others, you know, the untransmitted and the transmitted pilots. So I think I was doing quite well actually at my time in life as well. I'd be watching TV at that time, you know what I mean? But yeah. But I do remember watching those. I don't know if I saw them in 1981, the Tribe of Gum episodes or whatever it's gonna call it, the Caveman episodes. But I did watch them on UK Gold when they started rerunning the show in the 90s. And in my head, it's like, well, that's the first time I'd really seen the Caveman episodes by which time I'd already read the Terrence Dicks' Target novelization and read about it in Doctor Who Magazine and all the rest of it. So I kind of knew what it was about, but I do remember watching it and actually... getting quite drawn in because it's almost like, you know, you look at these people, there's a thing you've got to get past in your head, almost like they're cavemen or cave people, paleolithic, prehistoric, stone age people, humans, early humans, whatever you want to call them. But they're presented as, in one way, like a really alien culture. And I was watching it last night and I was thinking, well, there's probably some nice parallels here, right? So you've got... You've got the Doctor and Susan, who are from an advanced alien, possibly future culture, and have an incredible piece of technology. It's miraculous and magical. And Barbara and Ian cannot fathom it. They cannot understand it. And the Doctor has this little speech to them. It's like, well, you're tiny brains. You can't fathom. You can't understand. You're trying to fill in the gaps. And you can't do it. And he's laughing at them. Even in the remand, he's laughing at them. And he's a bit more cruel in the first version. And then we get exactly that happening with the whole thing about fire in the cavemen episodes. But this time it's Barbara and Ian who are also from an advanced magical future age with stuff that the early humans cannot comprehend. And if there's one thing about that script, it's that, which I don't think comes into the show again in quite such stark. relief, you know, it's never drawn quite so starkly because, you know, we're shown even as that first series progresses, we're shown a whole bunch of future technologies with things like the sensorites, obviously the Dalek future city and stuff like that. And yes, it's weird and disorienting and everything, but I don't think it comes as close as looking at it as it does in that first episode with the disorientation as they step through the TARDIS. And then from the cavemen's perspective, I'm still gonna call them cavemen, aren't I? Which is terrible, but from their perspective to looking up at Ian and Barbara, the whole thing about fire, it's a story about technology and it's a story about how technology can drive evolutionary change to a degree. And on the other hand, we're also presenting, and the early humans do seem very alien. And yet they talk in a very... well enunciated almost Shakespearean, you know, very rather trained kind of voices. And they worship the Orb, which is, which is quite an esoteric word for the sun or a circle or a glowing fire in the sky. It's, it's Orb, you know, it's not fire. I mean, it is fire or gives fire. So let's just put that one down to the TARDIS translation circuits matching to Ian and Barbara's expectations of what spoken English should sound like. So we'll just go with that. But you know what? It's all right. You know, it would be a shame if it wasn't there. It's not my favorite slice of Doctor Who, those three episodes, but it is. And it makes, exactly, yeah, you know, look in the past to sort of educate. But I think also it's like, it's nice that it starts at the beginning of humanity because, you know, we go through different, humanity at different stages of, you know, we go to the Aztecs a bit later on, we go to Marco Polo, so we see that, and then we're in the French Revolution. Oh, we see. the sensorites. That's humanity in the far future then with spaceships and everything and then we get back to the Reign of Terror the French revolution i.e. the book that Susan started reading at the you know at the end of An Unearthly Child. So there's a really do you know for that whole first season there's an absolutely beautiful it's not really an arc but there is a progression there's a nice thread there's a nice continuity thread running through the season and that's down to David Whitaker I suppose you know the story editor showrunner, not really showrunner, it's a team isn't it? David Whitaker, Verity and the various producers and obviously Sydney Newman in the background and Mervyn Pinfield and you know the whole kind of committee that between them created Doctor Who. much a team effort on this, wasn't it? You know, and there wasn't sort of one person leading as such. You know, they all sort of did a bit, I think, you know. Yes, but he was. a bullish, you know, very much a driver, you know, would kind of literally charge through doors. And from the sounds of it, they needed somebody like that because Verity being, she was like 27 years old, yeah, in a very patriarchal, male dominated, very kind of white middle class, you know, institution, even in those days. And I was reading up on it and, you know, her first day in there. her allies, so Sydney Newman, who she'd known anyway, right, she'd literally approached him, she worked with him at ABC or something, I think it was, and she wrote to him for a job and he said yeah come and do this, I'll need someone with your youth. I think he wanted like a young team of people who weren't institutionalized, who were looking at, you know, who didn't know that there was a 'correct' way to do certain things, you know, to push and innovate and everything else. And if there's ever an example of innovation in TV, then Doctor Who is it. And it is perfectly exemplified by this episode, the opening titles, the music, the bravery of the story, and even getting where it's the same. An Asian guy directing the first episode, who again was kind of maybe not quite viewed in the same light as all these white men around the place. So to have... quite a diverse crew, even in sort of minimal ways. And, you know, it's really something. So, you know, it's pushing the envelope in a lot of different ways. And even from the beginning, exactly, we get a story that isn't typical, is very creepy, is very different, has this amazing turnaround halfway through when they push through into the tiny doors. And, you know, like we said earlier, just imagine how incredible that would have looked and how unexpected it was. Yeah. Yeah, it would have been mind-blowing. Yeah. sure. Yeah, and I love it, Geoff. I absolutely adore this first episode. So to withhold any of that from future generations, in my view would be akin to a crime, frankly. Well hopefully, like I said, that will get resolved. So we'll see. But it's been great watching this back and for our explorers we hope you've enjoyed listening to our chit chat about it. Let us know what your thoughts are on an unearthly child. Yes. And... Yeah.??? And the early days. Yeah. And we'll catch you next time on an explorers episode and on our usual weekly episodes as well. So look out for that. Bye.